POGULYAEV (Kiev) / ПОГУЛЯЕВ (Киев)

[Joanna]

Начинаю поиск предков моего отца. До недавнего времени мы не знали, что мой отец наполовину еврей. Мой отец - Игорь Погуляев родился в 1929 году Киев Украина. 473/5000
Мой отец думает, что его родители звали Алеша и Мария, но не уверен. Он говорит, что "его деревню называли Шевченко". Это была последняя остановка киевского трамвая перед Пущей Водицей. С другой стороны, глядя на карту, отец предполагает, что жил где-то в р-не современных улиц Кобзарской - Красицкого (То есть близ трамвайной остановки "Площадь Шевченко" перед Пуще-Водицкой улицей), а в школу ходил на Подоле.

Мой отец был очень маленький, когда его родители исчезли. Он говорит, что однажды их просто не стало. Затем он жил с Яковом и Розой Крюковыми, мы не знаем, были ли они родственниками. Когда немцы вторглись в Киев, Яков и Роза исчезли, а моего отца посадили в поезд в Бухенвальд. Остаток войны он проработал на ферме близ Аролсена. После войны он работал на американцев в Берлине, был арестован (?) советскими оккупационными властями, и американцы вывезли его по подложным документам.

Мы сделали ДНК тест, и все наши совпадения - евреи из района Новозыбков. У одной семьи совпадение 132 сМ, и их предки тоже имели фамилию Погуляев (Nochim & Rosa Pogulyaev, есть на генеалогических сайтах) Родители моего отца исчезли примерно в 1934 году. Потом он жил в семье Крюковых, которые исчезли в 1941 году. У нас нет документов или определенных имен, чтобы продолжить. Моему отцу сейчас почти 90 лет, и он хотел бы узнать больше о своей семье. Все наши совпадения по ДНК переехали в Америку до рождения моего отца. Я ищу семью, которая осталась. Любая информация или идеи будут приветствоваться. Большое спасибо

Hello. I am quite new to the search for my father's family. Until recently we had no idea my father was half Jewish. My father was born Igor Pogulyaev in 1929 Kiev Ukraine. We recently had dad's dna tested and all of our close matches are jewish from Novozibkov area. My father's parents disappeared in approx 1934 and the people he lived with after disappeared in 1941 (krukovs). We have no papers or definate names to go on. My father is nearly 90 now and would love to know more about who his family were. All of our dna matches moved to America before my father was born. I'm searching for family that stayed. Any information or ideas would be most welcome. Many thanks

[MCB]

Hello. I am quite new to the search for my father's family. Until recently we had no idea my father was half Jewish. My father was born igor pogulyaev in 1929 kiev ukraine. We recently had dad's dna tested and all of our close matches are jewish from novozibkov area. My father's parents disappeared in approx 1934 and the people he lived with after disappeared in 1941 (krukovs). We have no papers or definate names to go on. My father is nearly 90 now and would love to know more about who his family were. All of our dna matches moved to America before my father was born. I'm searching for family that stayed. Any information or ideas would be most welcome. Many thanks

Have you requested a birth record from Kiev archives? And as concerns the DNA matches, how strong they are / how many and on which websites / what is the ethnic composition of DNA?

[Joanna]

Hi thank you for replying. no i have not requested records. I was told on a ukrainian genealogy site that no records exist for the year my father was born. My father's closest matches are to nokhim and reyzla pogulyaev from gomel dobrush now lyubovitsky 134cm across 7 segments and moshe meir pugliev and chiah bogdanoff from novozibkov now grayson 120cm across 8 segments.

[Joanna]

Sorry. Dna test was with ancestry

[Joanna]

49% European jewish, central &eastern Europe. Lithuania Latvia ukraine and western russia.
46% eastern Europe and Russia
5% baltic states

[anno_nin]

Hello. I am quite new to the search for my father's family. Until recently we had no idea my father was half Jewish. My father was born igor pogulyaev in 1929 kiev ukraine. We recently had dad's dna tested and all of our close matches are jewish from novozibkov area. My father's parents disappeared in approx 1934 and the people he lived with after disappeared in 1941 (krukovs). We have no papers or definate names to go on. My father is nearly 90 now and would love to know more about who his family were. All of our dna matches moved to America before my father was born. I'm searching for family that stayed. Any information or ideas would be most welcome. Many thanks

Hello, some questions:
1. Do Your father remember his paternal name?
2. Where was he born - in Kiev or in Novozybkov?
3. When and how he moved from Kiev to Novozybkov or from Novozybkov to Kiev?
4. Can You describe the meaning of the word "disappeared" in your story?
5. Pogulyaev and Krjukov are generally not jewish family names. So, your father's mother was Jew? What was her name?
6. Have You any relocation documents of Your father?

[MCB]

nokhim and reyzla pogulyaev from gomel dobrush now lyubovitsky 134cm across 7 segments and moshe meir pugliev and chiah bogdanoff from novozibkov now grayson 120cm across 8 segments.

Got it, so is it yourself or your father who matches to a descendant of Nochum and Reyzla Pogulyaev from this tree
https://www.geni.com/people/Nachum-Ely/ ... 7709482164

Anestry is super careful with assignment of matching centimorgans, but of course most matches on the Ashkenazi lines are spurious (just statistical fluke). Yet 100+ cM for someone who is at most half-Ashkenazi is very often significant. And a match of one very rare ancestral surname makes it almost guaranteed that the relation is true ... you likely share a great grandparent or a 2nd great-grandparent.

The vital records for 1929 in Kiev are civil registrations (not filed by confession, of course) and should be available. Also you father's identity papers most likely list his father's name? How and when did he travel from Ukraine to some English-speaking country?

The surname Pogulyaev is also found in the imperial-era vital records of Kiev rabbinate (CDIAK fond 1164), and a similar surname Pogulyaevsky is derived from a village of Pogulyavka in Klimovichi district, not far from your DNA relative's ancestral Novozybkov. So it should be possible to connect the dots.

[Joanna]

I'm afraid we have nothing in writing. My father thinks his parents names were alosha and Maria but isn't sure. He says his village was called shevchenko. It was the last stop out of kiev on the tram before pushcha voditsa. My father was very young when his parents disappeared. He says that one day they just were not there. He then lived with jakov and Rosa krukov, we do not know if they were relatives. When the Germans invaded kiev jakov and Rosa disappeared and my father was put on a train to buchenwald. Our link to novozibkov is only through dna match. My father was born in kiev he thinks. Someone told me that the village dad was from was founded in the 1920s with people from many places moving there

К сожалению, документы не сохранились. Мой отец думает, что его родителей звали Алеша и Мария, но не уверен. Он говорит, что место называлось Шевченко. Это была последняя остановка киевского трамвая перед Пущей Водицей. Мой отец был очень молод, когда его родители исчезли. Он говорит, что однажды они просто не вернулись. Затем он жил с Яковом и Розой Крюков. Мы не знаем, были ли они родственниками. Когда немцы вошли в Киев, Яков и Роза исчезли, а моего отца посадили на поезд в Бухенвальд. Наша связь с Новозыбковым только по ДНК тесту. Мой отец родился в Киеве, он думает. Кто-то сказал мне, что деревня Шевченко появилась в 1920-х годах, и туда приезжали люди из разных мест.

[MCB]

I'm afraid we have nothing in writing. My father thinks his parents names were alosha and Maria but isn't sure. He says his village was called shevchenko. It was the last stop out of kiev on the tram before pushcha voditsa. My father was very young when his parents disappeared. He says that one day they just were not there. He then lived with jakov and Rosa krukov, we do not know if they were relatives. When the Germans invaded kiev jakov and Rosa disappeared and my father was put on a train to buchenwald. Our link to novozibkov is only through dna match. My father was born in kiev he thinks. Someone told me that the village dad was from was founded in the 1920s with people from many places moving there

It's a fascinating story really, and we probably need it told in a sysematic detailed way & translated for the people who actually live in Kiev so they can chime in ... and it may help if you are ready to hire a researcher who can make a few requests to the archives there. I only been to the outlying Shevchenko district when I traveled to Syrets area where both the main archives, and the Baby Yar, are located (if that's the "Shevchenko" of his memories).

What kind of documents you have from Buchenwald / any DP camps after it / from immigration?

[Joanna]

My father's story is very complicated I know. To make it even more so my father was captured by the russians while working for the Americans as a translator in berlin after the war. The Americans managed to get him out of Berlin with new papers, not in his name.

[anno_nin]

working for the Americans as a translator in berlin after the war.

So, he knew Russian and German. But how he managed to learn English? And how he manage to survive in Buchenwald during 5 years?

[Joanna]

My father went to school in podol, kiev. He wore a white uniform. We think this must have been young pioneers uniform. I have sat with my father and compared old and new maps of the area. From this my father thinks he lived somewhere near where krasyts'koho street and kobzarska street are now.

Отец учился в школе на Подоле в Киеве. У них была белая форма. Мы думаем, это была форма юных пионеров.
Мы с отцом смотрели карты Киева. Он жил в районе нынешних улиц Красицкого и Кобзарской.

[Joanna]

He spoke English that he had learnt at school. He was taken from buchenwald at some point to a farm near arolsen to work. The farm manager was Polish so he learnt polish too. The work was hard and very little food. He weighed only 4 stone when the Americans found him but it was better than buchenwald where they had to scavenge for potato peelings.

Английский отец учил в школе. Из Бухенвальда его забрали работать на ферме возле Арлозена. Хозяином фермы был поляк и отец также выучил польский. Работа была тяжелой. Он голодал. Он весил всего 25 килограмм когда его освободили американцы. Но это было лучше чем Бухенвальд, где им приходилось питаться картофельными очистками.

[MCB]

From this my father thinks he lived somewhere near where krasyts'koho street and kobzarska street are now.

Yep, it makes sense - it's a village-like part of Kiev, and it's located off Shevchenko Square one streetcar stop before Puscha-Voditskaya street.

Anyway I suggest that you pursue three directions:
1) figure out if the Jewish side was on your father's maternal or paternal line (this direction may be technically the easiest since you can do it without using Russian language or Ukrainian researchers). For this, you should check chromosome painting of his X-chromosome to find out if the X-chromosome is ancestrally Ashkenazi or Slavic. His X-chromosome is entirely from his mother, so you'll get your answer immediately. Additionally, you can order another DNA test which reports on Y-chromosome and mtDNA (23andMe's all-purpose test does that, but so do FamilyTreeDNA's specialized Y- and mtDNA tests). This will further increase your confidence if you should look for a Jewish grandfather or a Jewish grandmother.
2) request vital records for Igor Pogulyaev born in 1929 anywhere in the city of Kiev
3) look for all Pogulyaev's in the Jewish vital records of the CDIAK, as well as in the city directories for the 1900s .. 1920s, in hope of finding his parents / uncles / grandparents. Keep in mind that Pogulyaev may have been his mother's name, as in 1929, there was an option of registering a child by mother's maiden name.

[MCB]

There is also this file in DAKO which may list the kids including potentially a grandparent of yours:
ДАКО (Киев) ф. 1 оп. 144 д. 864 "О разрешении Абраму-Янкелю Погуляеву жительства в Киеве по званию ремесленника, 1910

[anno_nin]

I created the separate discussion for this theme.
Let's see:
1929 born in Kiev
1934 - his parents disappeared. He was only 5.
1936 - he started to learn at school on Podol (children start learning at school at age 7, maybe 6)
1940 - generally English lessons start at school from the 5-th year.
1941 - the war started in June. So, he learned English at school only 1 year. He was about 12 years old when Nazi occupied Kiev.
29–30 September 1941 approximately 33,771 Jews were killed in Baby Yar. You can check the Krjukov names in the list of killed people.
----
Can You ask him did he learn at school when his parents disappeared?
Or he was in the kindergarten?
He has brother or sister?
Yaakov and Rosa Krjukov has another children?
How his parents disappeared? It shall be somewhat formal procedure to move a child to new parents. Where he lived? He continued living in the same flat, where he lived with his parents and Krjukov moved to live with him? Or he moved living in their flat when his parents disappeared?
Where his parents worked?
Can he restore the days when his parents disappeared? What Krjukov told him? He asked them where is his parents? He knew them before? Where they worked?
The first day at school? What he remember? Who came with him to school at the first day?
How he learned at school? How he spent time after school? Which presents he received on birthdays?

[Helen V.]

We recently had dad's dna tested and all of our close matches are jewish from novozibkov area

Где Киев и где Новозыбков...
На Ядвашем нет записей о Погуляевых из Киева. Но есть анкеты, поданные по Погуляевым из Клинцов и Новозыбкова. Податель их - Ефим Погуляев, живший на момент заполнения анкет в Санкт-Петербурге. К сожалению, на анкетах он не оставил никаких сведений о себе и неизвестно, в каком году он заполнил эти анкеты. Но все возможно найти.

[anno_nin]

На Ядвашем нет записей о Погуляевых из Киева.

Так родители исчезли задолго до начала войны. А мальчика могли записать и под фамилией приемных родителей. Если детей, которых отправляли в Бухенвальд, хоть где то регистрировали...

[oztech]

У одной семьи совпадение 132 сМ, и их предки тоже имели фамилию Погуляев (Nochim & Rosa Pogulyaev, есть на генеалогических сайтах)

На сайте Жертв политических репрессий также есть Погуляев Нахим Ананьевич

Родился в 1899 г., г. Томск; еврей; образование высшее; член ВКП(б) с 1920; завод 'Динамо' им. Кирова: инженер. Проживал: Москва, Тюфелев пр., д. 8, кв. 25.
Арестован 19 ноября 1937 г.
Приговорен: Комиссией НКВД СССР и прокурора СССР 23 декабря 1937 г., обв.: том, что в 1919 г. проживал в г.Харбине, являлся членом контрреволюционной белогвардейской организации 'Харбинское землячество томских студентов', работая на заводе 'Динамо', поддерживал тесную связь с троцкистами и проводил контррев. подрывную работу.
Расстрелян 29 декабря 1937 г. Место захоронения - место захоронения - Московская обл., Бутово. Реабилитирован 7 июля 1956 г.
Источник: Москва, расстрельные списки - Бутовский полигон

[MCB]

На сайте Жертв политических репрессий также есть Погуляев Нахим Ананьевич

Этих Ананьевичей в Москве было много в том же поколении. Владимир Ананьевич врач, майор в войну, но родился в 1905 в станице на Дону - уж вряд ли еврей. Михаил Ананьевич ветеринар (дела в ГАРФе). Дебора Ананьевна 1905 и Анна Ананьевна 1912 - тоже следственные дела НКВД в Москве.

А еще Погуляев Ефим Айзикович, на Память народа. Но этот же, кто подавал свидетельские листы про Клинцы на Яд Вашем - его отец был Айзик Лейбович, дядя, видимо, Моисей.

Конечно, с такой распространенной у славян фамилией, не так легко разбираться. Но хотя бы у евреев исключительно редкая.