GRANAT family (Odessa, Makhnovka) / ГРАНАТ (Одесса, Махновка)

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suewelsh
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GRANAT family (Odessa, Makhnovka) / ГРАНАТ (Одесса, Махновка)

#61 Сообщение suewelsh » 25 апр 2018, 10:26

atik and Anno Nin:

I have the birth certificate extracts and the photocopy that you sent me for Liza and Boris. My grandfather's birth certificate was destroyed during WWII, but I have confirmed he was born on 1 February 1872. I also found a brother Abraham, and perhaps also one anmed Louis. I do not have photocopies of the records which list these two brothers, Abraham and Louis (?) and a sister named Minka. If you have found them, and can copy them onto this website, that would be wonderful & I would truly appreciate it.

Thank you very much.

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GRANAT family (Odessa, Makhnovka) / ГРАНАТ (Одесса, Махновка)

#62 Сообщение suewelsh » 25 апр 2018, 10:41

Hello Kreknava.

Thank you for joining this discussion of my ancestors. I am still trying to figure out what happened from 1870's - 1907, when my grandfather emigrated to Canada from London. I am nowhere near ready to deal with WWII. But it would explain what happened to my great grandfather Yakov! He lived to be nearly 100! I wouldn't be surprised if Haya died, because my father once said that he remembered Morris getting a letter from one of his brothers circa 1920, stating "Mama is dead." For Yakov to remarry would have made sense. But unless his wife was his sister, her father could not have been Iosif Granat, as well as Yakov's.

I do thank you for sharing this. When I get a bit further in my research, I would very much like to see if that piece of data fits into my family history.

I did find out something about Olga Granat de Kaufman. I believe that she was the daughter of a man who may have been one of Morris' brothers named Mordecai. (I have the marriage certificate from Mexico City and it lists Mordecai as her father.)

The research continues...

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GRANAT family (Odessa, Makhnovka) / ГРАНАТ (Одесса, Махновка)

#63 Сообщение mihail » 25 апр 2018, 23:35

suewelsh писал(а):Источник цитаты Mikhail.Hello. Sorry for two months of silence. I have been trying to go through the city Directories that you referred me to on 14 Feb. Unfortunately, my Russian is awful, and it has been taking me forever. Is it possible that you might be able to look up Yakov (and wife Haya Simick) Granat/Granet in Odessa? I would really like to know where my great grandfather and his family lived, and what he did for a living. I even wonder if his home still exists. Some places where my family lived in Poland are still there!
If you find anything, please post it or give me the page number so I can copy it.

1885.

"Address-calendar of Odessa mayor's office" (page 85)

The main synagogue in Odessa:

- Nohim Kirillovich Granat, scientist. Nadezhdinskaya street, 10 (own house):

1885.jpg
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GRANAT family (Odessa, Makhnovka) / ГРАНАТ (Одесса, Махновка)

#64 Сообщение mihail » 25 апр 2018, 23:40

It's the same, in 1889:
1889.jpg

At the same post is listed in the book for the 1890th year.But in 1891 the post is occupied by another person.
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GRANAT family (Odessa, Makhnovka) / ГРАНАТ (Одесса, Махновка)

#65 Сообщение suewelsh » 29 апр 2018, 09:49

Hi Mihail. Thank you for these two entries from the Address-calendar of Odessa mayor's office" (page 85). I haven't found a Nohim Kirilovich Granat in my family -- at least, not yet.

Is there no listing for a Yakov Granat (my great-grandfather)? That's the person I'd really like to find. Maybe my grandfather, Morris Granat, would be listed,too, since he would have been 17 years old, and probably out of school. I have no idea what Yakov did for a living nor where he lived.

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GRANAT family (Odessa, Makhnovka) / ГРАНАТ (Одесса, Махновка)

#66 Сообщение mihail » 29 апр 2018, 12:10

suewelsh писал(а):Источник цитаты Is there no listing for a Yakov Granat (my great-grandfather)? That's the person I'd really like to find. Maybe my grandfather, Morris Granat, would be listed,too, since he would have been 17 years old, and probably out of school. I have no idea what Yakov did for a living nor where he lived.

I did not find such information.
___________
Here is another mention of the name of Granat (from Odessa):

Тopic "Гранат" on our forum:

"...In 1863 the merchant Naum Granat decided to move with his family from Odessa to Mogilev. He also had his two-year-old son Wulf (Wikipedia). Soon, in 1863, Samuel (Wikipedia) was born in Mogilev. ...".

- Odessa merchant woman Sarah Meerovna Granat (the owner of a house in Simferopol (1887))
- Feiga Nokhimovna Granat (from Odessa?),Simferopol,1903.
____________
Alexander Iosifovich Granat (born in 1921, in Odessa) .The cadet.1310th rifle regiment.Missing in December 1941 ( Information from the site "Memorial") .
____________

Links with your ancestors are not yet visible. But in genealogical searches one should consider all namesake who live in a particular locality.This may be the key to success: often through the biographies of distant relatives it turns out to find information about the person you are looking for.However,I think that serious information can only be found in the archives - Revision lists,metrical books ... - all this is in the Odessa archive.It is necessary to look for a way to get to these cases.

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GRANAT family (Odessa, Makhnovka) / ГРАНАТ (Одесса, Махновка)

#67 Сообщение suewelsh » 30 апр 2018, 20:12

Re: # 22 Post by MOCKBA » 20 Jan 2018, 07:30
To Mocba:

Hello.
I have been slowly reviewing all the comments posted here, and I had some thoughts about these comments, which you made previously. I don't like to rush my thought process, so please forgive the amount of time it's taken me to respond. I value all the input you and others have given me.

• The story was passed down to me no later than 1977 when Jack Granite died, and perhaps as early as 1968, when I first began questioning about my grandfather. Morris, my grandfather, died in 1943.
• The dating of Morris’ military service was an error I made, based on the stories that he was “young,” when he was conscripted. Since he has been determined by records to have been born on 1 February 1872 (Old Style), he would not have been drafted until age 21-22, circa 1893 or thereabout, and not as a young conscript of age 12-16.
• The 7th Corps was something I found in a library in Los Angeles in the early 1970's, and had copied wrong. It was not the 7th Corps, and I cannot read what I had penciled in so many years ago.
• Grandpa Morris married in London in 1905, emigrated to Canada in 1907, and came to the USA in 1923. He therefore could not and would not have been involved in any military events after 1905.
• I found evidence of Durranis claiming descent from Daud as early as the 1800's. See for example, (L. P. Ferrier, History of the Afghans Translated by W. M. Jesse. (John Murray, London, 1858).

And I will post below extracts from a much longer article from (of all places!) the Linked In Web site, which tends to validate my thoughts -- but still is inconclusive in and of itself.
Article by Noor Dahri in LinkedIn (2018)

There is no doubt about the usage of “Jewish” names by the Pakhtun/Pashtun tribes, and such names are also kept by Muslims around the world, but perhaps not with the frequency that the Pakhtuns utilize them. This is one reason that Muslim authors have given against the ‘Beni Israel’ theory.

But the Pakhtun’s follow peculiar customs like:

• “Passover Practice” of sacrificing an animal and smearing the doorway to avert death and calamity
• Placing the sins of the people upon a heifer or goat which is driven out in the wilderness in the manner of the biblical scapegoat
• Stoning to death of blasphemers
• Periodical distribution of land by lot
• The rites of circumcision and purification
Which were all given in the Book of Leviticus of the Beni Israel, and modern Muslim historians like Dr. Azmat Hayat Khan accept them as indicators, if not proof of their Israelite heritage. They are the only tribes in the area to practice all of these customs, as the ancient Beni Israel did 2,300 years ago.

The overwhelming physical and cultural evidence has pressured many observers, even Jewish ones to comment: “I was wonderfully struck with the resemblance of the Youssouf szye and the Khyberi, two of their tribes, to the Jews”.

Religious Named and Tool share common characteristics

• In Pashtu, names of God are known as Khudai; while in biblical Hebrew God is referred to as (El) Shadai. The Jewish prayer shawl (talit) issue also has a great resemblance to the Pashtu/Urdu word tolia which means towel.
• Many Pashtun wear scarves which look like a talit: a wide white scarf decorated with blue stripes on both sides of it. The only thing that is missing in the knotted fringes (tzitzit) attached to its four corners.
• Saturday in Pashtu is called Shanbay and Hebrew, Shabbat – the holy day of the week for Jews. During Shabbat, Jews are commanded to abstain from labor and reflect. Shabbat is the Jewish symbol of loyalty for God. In Pashtu, Sabat means loyalty, and on Shanbay work is also not allowed.
• Furthermore, Pashtu and Hebrew prefixes originate from the ancient Semitic language Aramaic. For example, the prefix “De” which used in Hebrew and Pashtu literature means from “from” or “of.”

There are probably more common words, names and phrases between the Pashtu, which belongs to western Iranian language group, and Hebrew which belongs to west Semitic language group. And yet both groups still have much in common, as the Pashtuns originate from the lost tribes of Israel.

We must also look at the current relationship between the Pakhtun tribes.
• The western “Afghan” tribe of Abdali (Durrani) was in prime form during Ahmad Shah Abdali’s Afghan Kingdom, yet they were never considered as leaders by the eastern “Pathan” tribes of the Suleman Mountains.
• The tribe of Yousufzai has remained the unchallenged leader of the eastern tribes since the beginning. In all matters of war, language and education, the Yousufzai have always stood out. Their form of Pakhto dialect is considered to be the purest, as compared to the Abdali Pushto which uses more Persian.
• The Yousufzai were also in possession of Torah and Israelite prayer items up to Nadir Shah’s invasion of India (L. P. Ferrier, History of the Afghans Translated by W. M. Jesse. (John Murray, London, 1858). P 4).
• Similarly among ancient Israel the tribe of Yousuf (which included the tribes of his sons Ephraim and Manasseh) was the unchallenged leader of Israel when the tribe of Judah (Yehudah) broke away.
• The Pakhtun Yousufzai are known through history for their large numbers, militancy and ferocity in war, just as the tribe of Yousuf is remembered by the Jews, Christians and Muslims.
• The capital of the ten tribes of Israel was at the city of Ephraim, just as the Yousufzai city of Peshawar (Pesh-Havor, meaning “over Havor”, the same as in written in the Torah) is the unofficial capital of the Pakhtun tribes in Pakistan.

The similarities of Pathan features, dress, manner, culture, practices, history, genealogy and professions with those of the “Jews” of Israel has made the majority of historians accept their own hypothesis, that they are descended from the Beni Israel tribes.

According to the Jere Van Dyk, a journalist and author:

“If you talk to three quarters of the [Pashtuns] in Afghanistan and Pakistan they will say they are descended from -in some way, they can’t clarify it—the lost tribes of Israel, or are in some way Jewish. They don’t understand things, but this is there. As an extension of this are The Taliban, who are Pashtuns, and who are a deeply politicized people with no understanding -and Karzai, a Pashtun, will tell you this – with no understanding of their 5,000 year old Pashtun traditions or culture.”

Just this past Friday Van Dyk spoke to a Pashtun who told him that they “like Jews in ancient times, still sacrifice sheep and goats, for good fortune.” He mentioned that “we put blood over a door for good fortune, as Jews do during Passover.”

Hebrew Manuscripts found in Afghanistan

A trove of ancient manuscripts in Hebrew characters rescued from caves in a Taliban stronghold in northern Afghanistan is providing the first physical evidence of a Jewish community that thrived there a thousand years ago.

On Thursday Israel’s National Library unveiled the cache of recently purchased documents that run the gamut of life experiences, including biblical commentaries, personal letters and financial records.

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Jewish Cemeteries in Odessa

#68 Сообщение suewelsh » 28 май 2018, 08:47

Hello everybody. I am trying to find the death records for my paternal grandparents, Yakov and Haya Granet/Granat/etc. They were born circa 1850 in Makhnovka, and moved to Odessa prior to 1872 when my grandfather was born.

As the family story goes, my grandfather received a letter sometime circa 1920, and began to cry. When my father, who was just a boy, saw this, he asked what was the matter (having never seen his father cry before), and Yakov said: "My mother is dead." Apparently she starved to death after the 1917 Revolution. Does anyone have access to Jewish Odessa cemetery records? I couldn't find anything on line that I could use.

As for Yakov, I know nothing. (Krekenava found a Yakov ben Iosif Granat for me who was evacuated to Sverdlosk in 1942, when he was nearly 100 years old. This could be him, except for the fact that my father, who was born circa 1911, was allegedly named for his grandfather.) Meanwhile, I'm hoping that somebody can help me by searching through any online cemetery lists which might exist. Maybe I'll get lucky, and find one of them!

Many thanks in advance for any help. Best wishes to you all. - Susan

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Jewish Cemeteries in Odessa

#69 Сообщение Юлия_П » 28 май 2018, 10:07

suewelsh писал(а):Источник цитаты Does anyone have access to Jewish Odessa cemetery records? I couldn't find anything on line that I could use.
Кладбищенские книги не сохранились. Смерть людей в то время регистрировалась в ЗАГСе. В Областном архиве есть книги регистрации умерших с 1919 г., но они не полные. За 1919 г. есть также книга регистрации умерших евреев.
Онлайн этих документов нет.

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GRANAT family (Odessa, Makhnovka) / ГРАНАТ (Одесса, Махновка)

#70 Сообщение oztech » 28 май 2018, 11:00

suewelsh писал(а):Источник цитаты Does anyone have access to Jewish Odessa cemetery records? I couldn't find anything on line that I could use.
Сьюзен, а зачем открывать отдельную тему под этот вопрос, когда можно это сделать в собственной теме?

Susan, why did you start a separate topic for this question when when you have the own one?
Григорий

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GRANAT family (Odessa, Makhnovka) / ГРАНАТ (Одесса, Махновка)

#71 Сообщение suewelsh » 30 май 2018, 09:32

Hello Gregory. I have been having problems with my computer. For some reason, I could not enter data on this thread. And I was having problems (and still am) with getting all posts to translate to English for me. I opened a new thread because I couldn't get on this one. Thank you for putting my entry back where it belongs.

I am now focusing on how I can find out where my great grandparents and some of my great aunts and uncles are buried. Is it possible for me to get email addresses for the Jewish cemeteries in and near Odessa? If they do no publish online lists of who is interred in each cemetery, I think this is the only way I can check for where family members are buried.

Many thanks for your help to date. --Susan

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GRANAT family (Odessa, Makhnovka) / ГРАНАТ (Одесса, Махновка)

#72 Сообщение suewelsh » 08 июн 2018, 08:08

Regarding the military service of Morris Granat - does anybody have any idea how long it would take for Morris to become a Feldwebel from a private? And wouldn't there be promotion records? I have written to the Military History Archives and am hoping for an answer. Many thanks.


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