GRANAT family (Odessa, Makhnovka) / ГРАНАТ (Одесса, Махновка)

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suewelsh
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GRANAT family (Odessa, Makhnovka) / ГРАНАТ (Одесса, Махновка)

#41 Сообщение suewelsh » 04 фев 2018, 08:44

Hello again everyone. I would like to answer all of the questions that have been asked in the last few days.

Let me first start with FACTS.

∙ While it is likely that Morris was born on February 1st, and his parents were Yakov (Jacob or Jack) Hranet/Granet and his wife, Haya Malka (Ida Minnie), the year is uncertain, and I have never found a birth certificate for him. I searched the Odessa and Makhnovka Archives ten years ago..
∙ Morris was a Levite.
∙ Morris was a ship’s carpenter, and traveled all over the world. My father told me that Morris traveled to Marseille, France, Buenos Aires, Argentina, up and down the Levant, and to England. (Source: My father’s memories.) Morris apparently had mementos of these voyages in the family home while my father was growing up. My brother has all of my grandfather’s tools, and he says that many are specific to ships, though I don’t know what this means. My grandfather also did fine furniture, some inlay, and carving.
∙ On 29 June 1904, Moishe Granat, aged 28, is listed aboard the S.S.Oliva, part of the Hamburg- Amerika Line, along with his sister (?), Mikle (Minka/Malka), aged 31, immigrants heading for London, coming from Wlawa or Mlawa (a city in Poland located about 500 miles east of Ham-burg)
∙ Morris ended up in London living across the street from Rebecca Krugliansky. He lived in the Lolesworth Building, in the area where Jack the Ripper had attacked women. Rent was cheap.
∙ Morris and Rebecca were married at the United Synagogue in London on 17 December 1905.
∙ Morris and Rebecca Grenet left Liverpool on March 7, 1907, aboard the S.S. Canada, and arrived in Portland, Maine, on March 16th, 1907. He is shown as a cabinetmaker, in possession of $20.00, and destined for the Jewish Board of Guardians in Montreal. He was 5'5" tall, with a fair complexion, and grey hair.
∙ The family lived in Montreal until 1923. Meanwhile Rebecca had four children: three daughters and my father, the second youngest.
∙ In 1923, Morris moved to Los Angeles, and sent for the family. Rebecca took the Grand Trunk
Railroad, and met up with him in Los Angeles. He worked in construction as a carpenter.
∙ Morris and family remained in Los Angeles until his death on 29 October 1943. He is buried in Mt. Zion Cemetery, in East Los Angeles.
∙ My grandparents, Morris and Rebecca Krugliansky (later Taylor) Granet both died before I was born and I never met them. So I heard nothing directly from them. I possess photos of some relations in London, and two that I believe are his sisters, but none of his parents nor the other siblings.

NOW THE SUPPOSITIONS:
∙ Allegedly my grandfather, Morris Granite was born in either Makhnovka (Russian: Махновҝа) near Berditchov, or in Odessa (in Russian: Одесса), in the Czarist Russia, the son of (Source of mother’s names: Odessa State Archives) nee Shimik (Source: Social Security Administration, application, 1937). No birth certificate = no certainty.
∙ Rebecca’s parents always thought that Rebecca was marrying an old man and didn’t believe he was just in his 20's when they got married. (He already had grey hair.) They also thought that he might be a Starievi or Subbotnik, because he was not an Orthodox Jew like them. (Source of age: printed on wedding license from London, England on 17 December 1905.)
∙ Before he lost his legs due to diabetes, he loved to dance the Kazatsky. He told people that he learned this while in the army in Kavkaz.
∙ He hung out at the Russian bath houses in London, Montreal, and East Los Angeles with many Old Believers and Molokians, and this made my grandmother wonder if he was really not Jewish.
∙ Grandpa Morris was alcoholic, and drank because he was in pain. He had both of his legs amputated due to diabetes late in life. Of course he embellished his stories. How much was true or what the basis was, is what I am trying to find out.
∙ While I don’t know how much of his army desertion story is true, I am pretty certain that he never returned to Russia, and always was afraid to do so. (Source: memories of my father and his sisters.)
∙ He may have been a bigamist. There is some evidence suggesting this, but this was not uncommon 100 years ago when people ended up in different countries and continents.

BUT NONE OF THIS IS GERMAINE TO HIS EARLY LIFE IN RUSSIA AND HIS MILITARY SERVICE AND THAT IS WHAT I NEED YOUR ASSISTANCE WITH.

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GRANAT family (Odessa, Makhnovka) / ГРАНАТ (Одесса, Махновка)

#42 Сообщение suewelsh » 04 фев 2018, 08:45

WHAT I AM SEEKING:
(1) Where was Morris born and confirmation of the year. I have been unable to find a birth certificate in the Odessa Kehilalinks records or in the Makhnovka records. Ten years ago, I searched unsuccessfully..
(2) Are there Granats/Granets buried in the big Odessa Jewish Cemetery? Would I find the matsevot of Yakov Granet and Haya Shimick Granet? Morris’ siblings? His descendants? Can I obtain photos?
(3) Where did the Granet family live in Odessa?(4) Why were there three birth certificates for the twins? One for Boris, Liza and Olga on 26 December 1879. (5) Were there City Directories from 1870 - 1917 that might list them? That might tell what Yakov, Morris’ father, did for a living? (6) How did a Jew end up in the military in the 1880' and after? (7) And how would one become a feldwebel or warrant officer? I thought that Jews were precluded from becoming officers of any sort. (8) If there were still soldiers at Kavkaz when it became a city, wouldn’t there be records someplace? Could he have been stationed there after 1889? (9) Were there any mutinies in the Czar’s Army from the 1880's - 1900?
Morris never returned to Russia, and his son thought that he was always afraid of reprisal for his desertion if he did. (10) What happened to his older brother, who remained in Alexandria? I wrote to the Chief Rabbi there 40 years ago, and the responses were that they had no record. Did he go to Palestine?

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GRANAT family (Odessa, Makhnovka) / ГРАНАТ (Одесса, Махновка)

#43 Сообщение suewelsh » 04 фев 2018, 08:48

Once again, I thank you for any help you may provide. Whether it is to debunk a myth, point5 me in the right direction, or provide me with data locations, I appreciate your efforts. This has been a search of nearly a half a century, and it is wonderful to finally be able to reach into Russia for information. Best wishes to you all, and thank you once more!

Dr. Susan Welsh

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#44 Сообщение mihail » 04 фев 2018, 12:35

suewelsh писал(а):Источник цитаты... How did a Jew end up in the military in the 1880' and after? ...

- Only according to the law common to all.Since 17 years - a volunteer.More likely - since the age of 21 (age of recruitment for all).
suewelsh писал(а):...And how would one become a feldwebel or warrant officer? I thought that Jews were precluded from becoming officers of any sort....

These are not officer ranks.This - warrant officer (унтер-офицер).Jews can be them.
suewelsh писал(а):...If there were still soldiers at Kavkaz when it became a city, wouldn’t there be records someplace?...

Your question is not quite clear.
Something can be in the military archive ( РГВИА,less likely - in the regional archives of the territorial subjects of the North Caucasus).But only if:
- know the exact dates.
- to know the exact location of the army units.
- documents of the necessary army units have been preserved.
suewelsh писал(а):Were there any mutinies in the Czar’s Army from the 1880's - 1900?...

in the form described in the story - unlikely.But for the time being I will say more cautiously: there is no such information.But my opinion is - unlikely.Deserter - yes,this is possible.
suewelsh писал(а):...Odessa ... Were there City Directories from 1870 - 1917 that might list them?

for example: List of the First General Census of the Russian Empire by city of Odessa,1897.

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#45 Сообщение suewelsh » 13 фев 2018, 23:40

Hello again everyone.

Yulia_P: I saw that you were working on the 1897 census. Is there any way possible that this will be available online in the near future? Inventory 9 had a few possibilities under Agranat or Garnet, though the birth certificate entries I have seen used the spelling Granet or Granat.

Is there any way to search the Odessa Jewish Cemeteries for Granat or Garnet or Hrnaet surnames and dates? Are these online? Does anybody have email addresses for these, so I could write to them for this information?

I think there must have been some sort of a City Directory for Odessa for the years 1870 - 1900. Odessa was cosmopolitan, and most large cities published these. There was generally an alphabetical section, a street address section, and a business listing section. These would really help my search, if they exist.

Thanks for your previous responses.

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GRANAT family (Odessa, Makhnovka) / ГРАНАТ (Одесса, Махновка)

#46 Сообщение mihail » 14 фев 2018, 18:40

suewelsh писал(а):Источник цитатыI think there must have been some sort of a City Directory for Odessa for the years 1870 - 1900. Odessa was cosmopolitan, and most large cities published these. There was generally an alphabetical section, a street address section, and a business listing section. These would really help my search, if they exist.

look at here.Among other things: Address-calendar of Odessa "Mayor's Office".1880s - 1900s.

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#47 Сообщение suewelsh » 15 фев 2018, 10:29

Mihail: This is exactly what I was hoping for!!!! I cannot open the files yet, and tomorrow will try to install .DJVU file extension to be able to open them. If that doesn't work, I'll have to try something else. But thank you -- these are
perfect.. :-D

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#48 Сообщение mihail » 15 фев 2018, 12:53

suewelsh писал(а):Источник цитаты Mihail: This is exactly what I was hoping for!!!! I cannot open the files yet, and tomorrow will try to install .DJVU file extension to be able to open them. If that doesn't work, I'll have to try something else. But thank you -- these are
perfect.. :-D


You can see here:

1) download (.PDF): "All of Odessa"

2) online: - search on request "ВСЯ ОДЕССА": National Electronic Library. - (1899-1911).There is an opportunity to download (file .PDF) - but you need to register.

3) I would address you and here: Odessa. But I'm not at all sure about the success (and security) of downloading from there.

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#49 Сообщение suewelsh » 22 фев 2018, 07:44

Thank you again Mihail for the link to the City Directories. I am slowly making my way through them, and am trying to get some of my friends (who have moved here from the Ukraine and Russia) to help me do this. I am very, very, slow at going through such documents! But I am determined to find out what Yakov Granet, Morris Granet's father, did for a living, and where the family lived.

My next question for everyone is: What is a good way to try and find my grandfather's siblings? Boris and Liza were twins, born 27 December 1877; and Solomon was born 22 April 1879. There was also Minka, and perhaps, Abraham, and Olga. We have web sites such as ancestry.com and family search (the Mormon site) in America, but finding Russian listings is almost impossible. What would you all suggest? Os there a Russian/Ukrainian genealogy web site that might be used?

Also, I'm trying to find out where the family was buried. Are the cemeteries on-line as they are in some places? Is it possible for you to refer me? Many thanks in advance.

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#50 Сообщение mihail » 22 фев 2018, 20:45

suewelsh писал(а):Источник цитаты ...born 27 December 1877 ... born 22 April 1879...

Odessa?
- The metric book of the Jewish society about the born 1877.(fund 39 inventory 2 case 16)
- The metric book of the Jewish society about the born 1879.(fund 39 inventory 4 case 3).And two more books for 1879 (the born 1879): "The metric book / copybook of the Jewish society about the born 1879" part 1. and "The metric book / copybook of the Jewish society about the born 1879" part 2.
(39 - 4 - 1 and 39 - 4 - 2).

These two documents are preserved. Documents are in the archive.

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#51 Сообщение Юлия_П » 22 фев 2018, 21:01

suewelsh писал(а):Источник цитаты born 27 December 1877; and Solomon was born 22 April 1879. There was also Minka, and perhaps, Abraham, and Olga
В базе данных jewishgen.org есть Odessa birth index - нужно поискать сведения о записях там. Когда Вы найдёте их, нужно обратиться в архив, указав фамилию, имя, год и номер записи. Вы можете запросить архивные справки и/или копии.

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#52 Сообщение suewelsh » 23 фев 2018, 03:04

Thank you Yuliya! I should have thought of that because I use the jewishgen web site a lot. But although it lists the data, I would like a photocopy of the original. Just for intrinsic value; although the actual documents usually more than an extract.

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#53 Сообщение Krekenava » 23 фев 2018, 07:20

What a fascinating investigation! I am just beginning to read it now so I am not sure I get the big picture but here is a detail: you say Olga may have been a triplet with Liza and Boris. There is an Olga Granat Kaufman on Ancestry whose DOB is given as 1901, so she could be their younger sibling. Her daughter is also mentioned here:
Olga Granat de K..JPG
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Шнейдер: Кракиново, Поневежис, Ковно, Петербург. Михельсон: Митава, Петербург. Лебедoв/Левидов: Митава, Рига, Петербург.
Кричевский: Миргород, Лохвица, Ливенгоф, Лисичанск, Бахмут, Петербург.
Лорман: Орша, Витебск, Петербург. Давидов, Богельман, Янкелевич: Петербург. Дун: Лохвица. Трауберг: Одесса, Петербург.

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#54 Сообщение Krekenava » 23 фев 2018, 07:23

Here Olga's DOB is June 9, 1900
Olga GK 1961.JPG
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Шнейдер: Кракиново, Поневежис, Ковно, Петербург. Михельсон: Митава, Петербург. Лебедoв/Левидов: Митава, Рига, Петербург.
Кричевский: Миргород, Лохвица, Ливенгоф, Лисичанск, Бахмут, Петербург.
Лорман: Орша, Витебск, Петербург. Давидов, Богельман, Янкелевич: Петербург. Дун: Лохвица. Трауберг: Одесса, Петербург.

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#55 Сообщение suewelsh » 27 фев 2018, 02:11

Hello Krekenava! That you so much for posting these two entries. Yes, that is one of my grandfather's sisters. I had found the record showing her and her daughter some 40 years ago, and totally forgot about it until I saw this. She apparently married Jacobo Kaufman in Odessa and then moved to Mexico City with him. We knew the surname, but nobody could recall the given name. Later, it looks like they divorced -- at least, that is what seems to be written on the back of the immigration card when she brought Flora to Texas for medical treatment. I am still hoping to confirm her birthdate and parent's names on her birth and marriage certificates. I always try to find at least 3 items that match. But you've helped me find 2 so far!

What is interested to me now is that my grandfather appears to be the oldest child...

Thanks again. The search continues.

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#56 Сообщение Krekenava » 11 мар 2018, 23:29

This is a list of those evacuated to Sverdlovsk in the Ural Mountains in 1942 that I was looking through on the Yad Vashem website.
Suddenly I stumbled upon a Granat family from Leningrad consisting of Raisa Granat, born in 1910, and her two elderly parents: Yakov, son of Iosif, Granat, born in 1846 - hard to believe that, he was almost a 100 years old at the time of evacuation in 1942, and his younger wife, Anna, daughter of Iosif, Granat. Their place of birth is not stated. They may not be related to your Granat family, Sue, but I thought this was worth sharing.
1942 Evacuation List Sverdlovsk Granat Family from Leningrad p2.JPG

1942 Evacuation List Sverdlovsk Granat Family from Leningrad p3.JPG
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Кричевский: Миргород, Лохвица, Ливенгоф, Лисичанск, Бахмут, Петербург.
Лорман: Орша, Витебск, Петербург. Давидов, Богельман, Янкелевич: Петербург. Дун: Лохвица. Трауберг: Одесса, Петербург.

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#57 Сообщение suewelsh » 25 апр 2018, 08:50

Boris -

Hello. Sorry for the long delay in writing. Where can I obtain a copy of the two Berdichev military audits of 1897? Perhaps this is my grandfather, Morris/Moses and his older brother, I think his name was Mordecai.
Последний раз редактировалось suewelsh 30 апр 2018, 20:11, всего редактировалось 1 раз.

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#58 Сообщение suewelsh » 25 апр 2018, 09:10

Sorry Boris. I disconnected by mistake. This is an interesting document that you mention. Can you post a copy of it? (Maybe even translate it so I can figure out if it is my family???) I would really appreciate that. I wrote the military archives, but as everyone warned, I didn't hear back and probably will not, because I do not have precise dates.

But thank you for finding a document which might turn out to be very useful...

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#59 Сообщение suewelsh » 25 апр 2018, 09:25

Mikhail.

Hello. Sorry for two months of silence. I have been trying to go through the city Directories that you referred me to on 14 Feb. Unfortunately, my Russian is awful, and it has been taking me forever. Is it possible that you might be able to look up Yakov (and wife Haya Simick) Granat/Granet in Odessa? I would really like to know where my great grandfather and his family lived, and what he did for a living. I even wonder if his home still exists. Some places where my family lived in Poland are still there!

If you find anything, please post it or give me the page number so I can copy it.

Thank you so much.

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#60 Сообщение suewelsh » 25 апр 2018, 09:31

25th day of the Omer -

A notice to anybody in j-roots:

You have all been really helpful to me. Can I return the favor? Do any of you want American records that I can get? I subscribe to a few sites, and could send you copies of things you would like. Please let me know. Best wishes - Susan.

Всем на форуме:
Вы мне действительно помогли. Могу я отплатить? Кому-нибудь нужны американские записи, которые я могу раздобыть? Я подписана на некоторые сайты, и могу прислать кое-какие копии, которые вам нужны. Пожалуйста, дайте мне знать. Всего наилучшего - Сьюзен.


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